Public School is Hamburger
January 31, 2008
As I am sure all of you are aware, I am pro-homeschooling. I have the home schooling vision.
I really do have a hard time comprehending how people can say things like:
Our children are flourishing [in public school].
How do you know that for sure?
"I can say with certainty that I am receiving an education of equal or higher quality than that I would receive if I were home schooled or if I attended certain private schools."
And exactly how can you say that with certainty?
There are some bad influences around me, but they do not have an influence on me, except to learn what not to be like.
Really? Please explain that one in more detail.
How can people who send their children to public school say that it is not harming their children? How can they say their kids are getting just as good of an education in public school as they would at home? How can they say they have just as good a relationship with their child as they would if they were home schooled?
I would like to draw an analogy…
Home School is to Public School as a Juicy Rib Eye Steak is to Hamburger
Marcus really, really, really loves hamburger. He loves hamburger so much that he eats it in just about every meal he makes. He cannot imagine any cut of meat being better than hamburger. And, he would have to imagine, because he has never had a cut of meat other than hamburger.
Over the years, several of Marcus’ friends had tried to get him to try steak, but he always refused, saying hamburger is just as good… or better. Marcus’ friends were always dumbfounded that he claimed hamburger was better than steak even though he had never had steak!
One day, his friend Bob invited him to dinner. A steak dinner, courtesy of Bob. At first Marcus insisted that he be able to bring his own meat because he wasn’t so sure about wanting to try steak. Bob and Marcus went ’round and ’round about the whole steak vs. hamburger thing. Finally, Marcus, realizing that it was possible the steak could be better than the hamburger, gives in and agrees to let Bob cook him a nice juicy rib eye steak.
Fast forward a bit. Bob and Marcus sit down to eat dinner. Bob is excited to see the look on Marcus’ face when he takes his first bite of a nice juicy rib eye steak! Marcus takes a bite. "Oh my goodness! This is sooo wonderful!" exclaims Marcus. "How come I didn’t try steak earlier?" Bob says, "Marcus, we have all tried to get you to try steak before and you always insisted hamburger was just as good or better". "Oh," Marcus said, "what was I thinking?"
Maybe you don’t like steak, but do see where I’m coming from? It is great that Marcus likes hamburger, but he is ignorant about steak. There is no way that he can say hamburger is just as good or even better than steak. None.
Hamburger and steak are not the same. Bicycles and motorcycles are not the same. A Ford Focus is not the same as a Cadillac CTS. And if you have not either tried both or read the statistics on both, there is no way you can say one is just as good or better than the other. None.
Can someone show me scripture that backs up sending your children off to an institution all day, out of your care and control, to be indoctrinated with whatever the government wants them to learn?
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January 31st, 2008 at 11:50 am
That was a great post Jeff! Great analogy!
January 31st, 2008 at 12:22 pm
So Jeff, your goal is to be preaching to the choir then? Because the way you are headed, there won’t be anyone ELSE sticking around here to preach to!
I’m a lifetime member of the choir, in case you were wondering. But, I personally feel there’s a better way to influence and minister to those who aren’t. I’m sad to think you are losing that opportunity more and more with every post!
January 31st, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Sorry, buddy. I’m not touching this one.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Your analogy fails on one very big point. Marcus didn’t have to make his own steak. *cough cough*
January 31st, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Oh, good point there Katie. Marcus would have to make his own steak. I could give him great information and steak recipes, but in the end, to leave hamburger behind he would have to make the steak himself.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Okay… so, I didn’t finish the story. Marcus was so thrilled with steak that he chose never to eat hamburger again and instead of having Bob cook it for him, he made it himself and lived happily ever after. There.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Jeff, I enjoy reading yours and Katie’s blogs, however, I think I will need to stop reading yours. My two oldest boys attend a Christian Day school, by that alone it seems you would judge and not want to hear the rest of the story. Your way or the hiway it seems.
This has been the best experience, especially for my oldest. He is in grade two and is growing in faith and fellowship there. My children would not have the same social opportunities they have now if we chose to homeschool. We live in rural Canada on a dairy farm, they have plenty of opportunity to learn practical things, but thier worldview would not be so broad had I chose to homeschool.
They learn not only to repect thier parents, but also thier teachers and those put in authority above them. This is biblical, to respect authority.
I am completly against public school, I would not put my children in that situation day after day. If however, finacially it was not possible to continue with the Christian school, I would homeschool, but this would not be ideal for our family.
Maybe what I’m saying is, I respect your decision to homeschool, please respect our decision for Christian Day school.
I really do hope I can keep reading your blog….
January 31st, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Tarah,
I was not intending to be preaching to anyone. If you want to call it preaching, fine. I was sharing convictions of mine on my blog. I am losing the opportunity to influence and minister with every post? I have encouraged Tracy.
I am sorry you are feeling preached at. That was not my intention.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:50 pm
I don’t think it is wrong of you to speak your convictions, especially if they are from the Lord. Unfortunately, much of the church body has become too soft and pliable when it comes to issues concerning most of the major issues of today. Not everyone will like what you have to say, and thats ok. I feel the same way about homeschooling and to some I might seem like an extremist. That doesn’t bother me much, because it’s the extremist on the other side that have brought this country to the state that it is in. Too many of us have been too quiet for too long. We can all see what the intention of the public school is and if we choose to ignore it than we will suffer the consequences.
When I was 18 my father ran for school board and won. I was honored to be able to vote for my father at the polls. After some time on the board, going through files, dealing with the system, and students, he pulled all of his kids out of the public school system. I believe it made the paper. He then, put the kids in Christian school. This too was not a fix as my father soon found out that a lot of the same drug and sex crud was there too. (Not to mention, a lot of the teachers at these Christian schools are not Christians.) He ultimately pulled them out of there too.
Anyway, my father found things in files of students that labeled them “at risk” for coming from “religious” families. The cure for a lot of these students was to be put in the “Gifted and Talented” program, where their belief system could be peeled away and where they could be part of an upper eschelon. These children would grow up to be the molded leaders of our government. I’m not saying that all “G and T” kids came from a Christian background, however this was the way Pub. School system to deal with Christian kids in my district. What an honor to have your child be apart of such an elite program…. That is what a lot of these Christian parents believe. There are more scary stories that I can tell about this, but I will keep this short. lol My father left the board of education never to return to the beast.
You haven’t lost me as a reader. I find sometimes the things that prick our heart or make us upset are the things that the Lord is trying to use to reach us and ultimately change us.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Oh, I simply must share something else. When I was in 11th grade, my school sent all of us students at different times to fill out a questionnaire in the library. When my class was sent, I was shocked and horrified to find out that the questionnaire was about Sex/homosexuality/bestiality/oral sex/ etc. They wanted to know if I had tried any of these acts, and if I had enjoyed them if I did them etc. I asked to be excused to the bathroom and called my father. He immediately came down to the school and threatened lawsuits. The school was doing this without parental permission and it was against the law at the time. Thankfully, my father was able to stop what was going on that day. Sadly, I believe it is allowed without parental consent today. This happened in 1992 and I’m sure it’s only worse today.
If I have to live as a missionary in a remote jungle to keep my children from this I will.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Personally, I read many blogs that go directions I don’t like, or by people whom I do not agree with partially or wholly. I think it is childish to say “If you don’t stop saying things I don’t like on YOUR OWN blog, I will stop reading”. As if any one of us is so important that someone else would care if we read their blog or not. If a blog starts to not encourage or help me, no one forces me to read it. The fact remains, when it’s your space, you can say whatever you want. I’m not going to tell anyone else what to write or talk about. That just doesn’t make any sense.
For the record, I understand what you are saying Christa. Up until last year my kids went to a private Christian school. Thankfully my kids would have only been in 3rd, K and preschool this year, so I was able to bring them home early. You are correct to say, while it may not have been public school, the environment at home is like night and day.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Jeff, I get what you are trying to say. It’s bold. I’ll give you that. But most homeschool families feel the same way. Very often I hear parents say, “They’re better off because…..”, but on the flip side I can’t count how many times I’ve heard, “By the time I pulled them out, they were begging me to homeschool them.”
So, then my question to the others would be the same as yours, “How do you know?”
January 31st, 2008 at 2:32 pm
You know, here is the thing. Sometimes someone will say something that makes us SO MAD that we just HAVE to prove them wrong. Sowing seeds happens in a lot of ways, some gentle, some absolutely contentious and even offensive. I personally REMEMBER being SO MAD at Dr. Laura Schlessinger for saying that moms should not work…and madder still when she wrote “Parenthood by Proxy”.
But you know what…mad as I was…she was right. It took me about a year to realize it…and another year to do anything about it…but a big part of why I am home today is because of what she said.
Don’t stop speaking to your convictions…not that I think that even for a minute that you would…those that have read…can’t take back what they have read. It’s in there. If they think you are DEAD wrong they will find facts that either support or deny your claim…and the Lord can lead them from there.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:49 pm
I really do enjoy reading your blog as well. It seems to be that the largest point Tarah brought up was about socialization and world view as an attribute of schools.
Do you feel your children are as well socially adjusted as their peers?
January 31st, 2008 at 2:54 pm
I am pro-homeschooling & enjoy reading your posts whether I agree or not.
You say “And if you have not either tried both “, but have you tried anything other than homeschooling?
Angela :-)
January 31st, 2008 at 2:56 pm
My Dearest Son,
You are assuming here that ALL homeschool parents are equal in their ability and desire to teach their children. That is not the case in real life. As you know, most of the kids in our congregation through out the years have been homeschooled. There is a vast difference in the outcome of each family. One mom never taught history, because she didn’t like history, the kids had free access to computer fantasy indentity games 24/7, they were “Christian” at least the parents are. The kids were NEVER in public school. Yet, there were not respectful, and are not following the Messiah in any way shape of form.
Two families have daughers that got pregnant outside of marriage, (one at 17 and one at 19) . Other homeschool famiilies have older teen/adult children that are drug addicted and in and out of jail. Do I need to go on?
And yes, some kids are doing great from the same families. What is the difference? The free will of the child, which is something that is given by the Holy One and even He doesn’t violate our own free will. The best we as parents can do is help steer the choices of our children while we still have some influence in their lives.
so… my dear son, life is not always as we would like it to be, or as we plan it to be, especially when dealing with children. Once they are big enough to no longer be forced to do what a parent wants them to do, the parents then see how what they were doing as a parent “worked” for each particular chlid.
We can only parent/homeschool to the best of our ability with the knowledge we have at the time. As we age, we are better able to see where we “screwed-up” in the lives of our children, and ALL parents “screw-up” we are all SINNERS in desparate need of a Redeemer. as are our children.
I can remember as a teenager, in speaking to my Aunt Mickey, I was appalled at the lives of the children of some godly people we knew. Trying to figure out how such things could happen in Christian families. Aunt Mickey was very wise, she said “We must be careful in our judgement of others. I can not say my children, (who were still quite young) will never do “blank”… I can hope and pray they won’t, I can do all I can to prevent such situations, but… They are free agents in this world, and how each chlid may turn out is not always predictable or under my control.”
And so to put yourself as a judge of the actions of others in this world is a precarious position in which to stand.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:58 pm
I’m sorry if I didn’t word my ideas correctly. I was just trying to add another side to the discussion. I cannot be certain that I am receiving a better/equal education. But, my brother and I are both in some honors/AP (college level) courses and our teachers have studied the subject they teach extensively and are able to do a great job teaching at high levels. By having more than one teacher I experience different teaching styles. My biology teacher is great at explaining concepts that otherwise would be confusing to me. There are different levels of courses so students can move at the right pace. Not all public schools are the same. I would not want to attend many public schools.
I said that bad influences around me do not effect me. I’m sure they do a little, but I don’t change to be more like the people around me. This may not be true of all people and I understand that home schooling is the best option for many people, but sometimes it isn’t an option. My character doesn’t change because of the people in my environment. I am modest and nothing so far has been able to change that and I would never consider doing drugs or alcohol.
I have made many friends in public school that are good influences. Not all of my friends are Christian, but I look for character, not beliefs when looking for friends. I don’t think that because someone has different beliefs that they are a bad influence on me.
I have had so many great opportunities that I would have missed if I did not attend public school. I volunteer for a high school student run EMS service in our town. This would not be possible if I didn’t attend my high school. I have learned and will continue to learn through volunteering here. This EMS service was founded to teach high schoolers not to drink and drive from first hand experience.
I think that home schooling is great. I am just saying that it isn’t an option for my family. I am saying that my public school works for me, not that it is right for everyone.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Jeff,
Keep up the good work!
Not everyone is going to like hearing the truth. We have some pretty clear pictures of that in the bible (Apostle Paul, John the Baptist, The Messiah). If the world doesn’t like the message and they start throwing stones, it is something that they probably need to hear.
Also, I am glad to hear that Marcus got off of his lazy tail feathers and started feeding himself. LOL!
Keep up the good work!
January 31st, 2008 at 3:02 pm
I’m sorry if I didn’t word my ideas correctly. I was just trying to add another side to the discussion. I cannot be certain that I am receiving a better/equal education. But, my brother and I are both in some honors/AP (college level) courses and our teachers have studied the subject they teach extensively and are able to do a great job teaching at high levels. By having more than one teacher I experience different teaching styles. My biology teacher is great at explaining concepts that otherwise would be confusing to me. There are different level courses so students can move at the right pace. Not all public schools are the same. I would not want to attend most public schools.
I said that bad influences around me do not effect me. I’m sure they do a little, but I don’t change to be more like the people around me. This may not be true of all people and I understand that home schooling is the best option for many people, but sometimes it isn’t an option. My character doesn’t change because of the people in my environment. I am modest and nothing so far has been able to change that and I would never consider doing drugs or alcohol.
I have made many friends in public school that are good influences. Not all of my friends are Christian, but I look for character, not beliefs when looking for friends. I don’t think that because someone has different beliefs that they are a bad influence on me.
I have had so many great opportunities that I would have missed if I did not attend public school. I volunteer for a high school student run EMS service in our town. This would not be possible if I didn’t attend my high school. I have learned and will continue to learn through volunteering here. This EMS service was founded to teach high schoolers not to drink and drive from first hand experience.
I think that home schooling is great. I am just saying that it isn’t an option for my family. I am saying that my school works for me, not that it is right for everyone.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Are you not familiar with what “preaching to the choir” means? Why would I (as a ‘choir member’) feel preached at?
Let me try and explain more clearly what I meant. I believe the best influence on those who are currently psing is for them to observe a homeschooling family and the blessings/fruits that family reaps daily. You and Katie have a great forum here to share those blessings with who knows how many readers and from what life circumstances. Instead you have chosen to call out anyone who isn’t doing school (which is just one area that you guys have a great testimony) the way that you are. And while you pretend to want to know their reasoning, you have already drawn your line very clearly and basically dared them to cross it. That to me is a squandered opportunity….maybe many squandered opportunities. I guess we’ll never know. You obviously don’t agree, and that’s fine.
Debbie, I am not sure what your point for me is. Is there no responsibility that we bloggers have for what we say and how we influence those who read? Do bloggers have a free pass to be discouraging and unhelpful to those they ‘meet’ online? Even to other believers? It’s patently obvious that a person can write whatever they want on their own blog. It’s obvious also that those who take the time to read can critique it if they want, so long as the blog owner allows. I am in no way telling Jeff what he can or can’t write….or threatening to leave (like he’d care). I am simply questioning what he has written and his purposes.
Stack, I do agree that sometimes it works that way. I breastfed my last two children b/c I was so offended by militant bfers…..offended enough to hang around and figure out how to do it. Does that mean they were right in being mean and insensitive to me? Most of them weren’t believers, so I wouldn’t expect different. I guess it goes to show God can use even those who are doing it wrong! :)
January 31st, 2008 at 4:07 pm
One of the beauty’s of homeschooling is that if you are weak in one area of teaching, you can find the help you need through groups in which you can be very much apart of. You can pick and choose what you want. We have some children in our group that could be considered naughty, but I am right there with my children in these environments. I am able to correct my children. Sadly, in the P.S. System this is not possible. We have parents in our group that may not be all they could be as well. I myself am not perfect and I mess up all the time. Adult children are going to have their free will and they will make their own decisions, but it is my duty as a parent to do all that I can in Christ for them. If we don’t have people like Jeff or other parents that “preach” homeschooling, then people are stuck with only knowing a sad alternative that could make their family lives horrible.
I used to coordinate proms for the public highschools with my MIL. She needed help , so I was there to set up, watch over the kids, and take down. This was only two years ago. The children are bringing alcohol in with them, wearing things that could hardly constitute any kind of coverage, dancing in grinding like motion with thier private parts all pushed up against each other (girls with girls, boys with boys, and girls and boys it didn’t seem to matter), and the teachers were out there dancing provocatively out amongst them. To top the night off, they sent a shot glass home with the kids, naming the year they graduated and the school they went to.
At one prom, (and I have done several until I just couldn’t take being around it anymore) I had one substitute teacher come up to me in a panic asking me why I wasn’t stopping the children from dancing that way. I told her that I was not allowed to interfere with the children by order of the school’s policy, and that it was her job to stop her students. I could only stop them from damaging the premises or harming each other. She said that she was only there to cover a teacher that couldn’t go and that she had never seen anything so horrible in her life. I told her that this is one of the very reasons I homeschool my children. She was speechless and didn’t speak to me for the rest of the night. This was at every prom and winter formal I did….. And it was at my prom as well. I will not go into what I, a very influenced by her friends “Christian Girl” was doing at her prom. Parents, save your children from this.
My husband considers it a ministry to tell everyone he can about homeschooling. I believe if God can trust us to birth our children then he must trust us to teach our children. I believe He has put it into all of us to be able to teach them otherwise He would not have said this:
Deuteronomy 6:6-9 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
I am not speaking about individuals who can not homeschool due to health circumstances etc. , the church and homeschooling bodies should step in and help in these cases. I am speaking to Christians as a whole. Too many of us cop out, because we want that big house, or that vehicle. Sometimes we must make sacrifices. I am glad that my husband and I did.
It breaks my heart when a mother tells me that they don’t have the patience to do what I am doing with my children or that it is “just not for them”. I believe that God has put it in all of us to be able to do so. If we feel we are not able because of our own ability, then we should seek help from the homeschooling body. I don’t think sending them to a system that abhors our God and is set on stamping Him out is the right thing to do.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Well, Jeff….all you need to do is write what you want and let your mother diffuse things in the comments. :)
So eloquent and lovingly well-put, Reb! And you do just as well on the controversial topics at the Shed. I am impressed. Now see, that makes me really WANT to go read her blog and find out more about all the strange and interesting ways she does things. In fact, I visited their site today to read more due to her eloquent and kindly put posts on headcoverings…..something I have never seriously considered.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Jeff, have you read any articles lately about a large percentage of Christian kids graduating from secular college, and having turned from their faith? This is also an excellent topic discussion. I haven’t been able to find the one article I read, but I will pass it on when I do.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Tarah, I was addressing everyone and did not address you specifically, so I’m not sure why you thought my words were directed at you? Anyway, it was just a general statement.
As far as having a responsibility as to what we blog, I feel like it is like any other media. You the reader have to decide what to allow into your eyes/ears/minds. I don’t think I even have a responsibility to other believers as far as what I write. I read things by other Christians all the time that I disagree on, but we have minds of our own to come to our own conclusions. I find this blog encouraging, so I read it. If that changes, I’ll stop.
I am not adequately expressing my thoughts here, as this comment sounds arrogant and snotty and that’s not all where my heart is, so I will stop “beating a dead horse” as the saying goes and leave it to others, like Jeff’s mother to make the more eloquent comments. :)
January 31st, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Awesome post.
BTW- if you feel you have to stop reading Jeff’s blog, then you will feel that way about Katie’s too, if not now, then in the future. They both have made similar posts and have strong feelings and aren’t afraid to say it.
Jeff, luckily both my and my dh’s parents think homeschoolings is the best, but I’ve had some people I’ve been in contact with who seem to think public school is just as good and I’m wondering if these people actually live in the real world and watch the news??
Public schools have SO many things wrong with them that I honestly don’t see how any parent can wake up in the morning and send their child off to any school and not sink down to the ground and cry over what they’re subjecting their children to.
Just off the top of my head:
sex - and not the kind God intended, between a man and a woman, in marriage
drugs
alcohol
violence, poss. death
teasing
bullying
extremely substandard education in every subject
actual false information, especially in history and science texts
and I’ll stop there.
I also feel that it’s somewhat our job, as homeschoolers, to educate the general public about homeschooling, because ignorance is not always bliss. If I had never heard of home education, maybe my children would be in what I like to call “the children’s prison system.”
I’m very thankful for outspoken homeschoolers, because my life has been changed and so have my children’s.
They are home, they are safe, they are with someone who loves them all the time. They are getting a better education, they are free to be smart and not be picked on because of it. They are encouraged, they are not “left behind” they don’t “fail” they do not make friends more important than family.
So, Jeff and Katie, you have so many people reading your blogs, keep educating them on homeschooling. You don’t know how many seeds you may be planting.
~Becky
January 31st, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Jeff just lost me as a reader-
Jeff, best wishes to you and your beautiful family - I know you will have a happy future.
I have enough self-imposed guilt, don’t need any more from the outside.
I am happy with my hamburger, as lowly as it may be!
Andrea
January 31st, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Angela,
You left out “or read the statistics on both”
I went to both public schools and a Christian school as a child. So I can say from experience what those are like. I see kids everyday that are public schooled. In general, I do not like what I see. I know a lot of homeschooled families and their kids for the most part I like what I see.
I have read statistics and read the news. I know what is happening in public schools and it is disgusting!
Oh yeah, we have tried public school with our daughter Jenna. We have also done foster care for 10 years and had kids that were in public school.
And I used to work at a juvenile prison with a public school on campus.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:36 pm
I would like to take a moment to respond, at least in part, to the post which brings up free will. While it is very true that we all have been given free will, it is also true that the Word of God has given parents directions on how to raise their children.
“Train up a child in the way he should go and when he grows old, he will not depart from it.” Proverbs Chapter 22 verse 6
I do not believe that God’s Words will return void. So it appears that we might have an issue here.
I think that what we need to focus in on is the word train. Some people are offended by the word train. They say, “That is horrible, you train dogs not children.” My response is, “train is a great word because you train World Class Athletes and you train military personnel.”
I have spoken with parents that refer to the above verse and tell me how their kids have exercised their free will and have gone off and done things that were inconsistent with their training, or so it would seem. After some discussion I would learn some interesting things
1. I learned about the TV habits of these kids. The common theme of TV seems to be sexual impurity, sexual impurities of every variety. Almost nothing seems to be safe. Even the commercials are filled with Filth. Maybe it is time to turn off the TV, for you too Mom and Dad. Parents, if it pollutes the soul of your kids, than it is also polluting your souls too. We also know that TV teaches all kinds of ungodly behavior, not just sexual impurity.
2. Public Education- It is clear that Public Education is against God. Yes, even if your kid’s teacher is a Christian. The kids deal with more than just the teacher. They deal with an entire institution. This is an institution that has actively tried to remove prayer, the bible, and the 10 Commandments. An institution that teaches Evolution which directly contradicts what we are told in Genesis (other places too). Now this institution is clearly teaching anti-God lessons and then we tell our kids to get good grades, or in other words learn/internalize anti-God messages and thoughts. Now our children are serving two masters.
3. Violent Video Games, etc
This post is starting to get a bit long. So I am going to wrap it up with just the above 3 quick examples.
I think that it is clear, that while people say that they have trained up their child, that the training is generally not the training that God intended. Some families that appear to be wonderful, godly families might not be. While it is true that we parents are not perfect, our Heavenly Father is. My wife and I have admitted this and we pray that God grants us all that we need to raise children that will bring Him glory. When we mess up, we ask Him to fill the gap.
Consider 1 Samuel Chapter 17 Verse 58 ” And Saul said to him, Whose son art thou, thou young man? And David answered, I am the son of thy servant Jesse the Bethlehemite.” Today when a child performs well, it is often asked, what school does your child attend?” It is clear that society believes that schools have a greater impact on kids than there own parents. Unfortunately, in far too many cases that is true. Add up the hours. Where are the kids spending most of their waking hours?
I pray that God creates a burning desire for parents to be Godly parents, good examples to their kids. I pray that God brings families back together so that children can be properly trained and equipped to serve their Mighty and Loving God. I pray that God fills the gap when all of us less than perfect parents mess up. I love you all and I pray for God’s best in your lives and the lives of your children.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Goodbye Andrea. I am sorry you have so much self-imposed guilt. I really don’t need the drama here anyway. I get enough of it from my young daughters here at home.
As my previous pastor used to say “If you don’t like it, leave - we need your parking space.” That is paraphrased.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Christa, most of the studies show that 80-85% of Christian young men and women fall away from their faith while going to a secular University. I will try to see if I can find anything online to the actual studies that back this up. Being missionaries to secular Universities we keep up with these disturbing facts as we reach out to the world’s more darkest place. I know the Southern Baptist denomination recently shared a huge statistic as I did above of their youth losing their faith in God at secular college too.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Wow Sarah! That is even higher than I thought I read. It’s so great that you are out there doing what you are doing. I can’t begin to imagine the situations you must come across out there. I’ll be praying for you guys!
January 31st, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Amen Ed. And when I have had this conversation with Heidi face to face she admits that the homeschooling families she knows that “failed” (my words, not hers) had many other issues. This is not about homeschooling but lazy parents. And those parents would have been lazy whether their kids were in public school or they were homeschooled. I shudder to think how much worse those kids would have been in their dysfuctional homes with the influence of public school for 12 years.
Homeschooling alone is no guarantee for raising godly children (heck, we attended a secular homeschool group when we moved to MO) but it certainly is one piece of the puzzle when you are raising your children to follow after Christ. I don’t see how public school can figure into the equation. I want the *best* for my kids and I won’t settle for less. Go figure.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:10 pm
My Dearest Mom,
As you know, the majority of the people in your congregation have poor self-esteem and many other issues. The kids you speak of did not turn out that way because they were homeschooled. Think how much worse it could have been if they were in public school!
The parents were Christians? I didn’t show you their family website? You have got to be kidding me! And you think those kids would have turned out better in public school?
Are you speaking of the two girls the father sent off to college when they were 14 and 16. The ones he let live in an apartment by themselves? Pregnancy happens in public school more frequently. What are you saying? That these girls would not have gotten pregnant if they went to public school?
That is a very interesting statement. So do you feel this way about all pastors, priests, teachers, etc?
January 31st, 2008 at 9:38 pm
If I like hamburger but homeschool, am I a hypocrite? LOL
Great post, Jeff. Even if we are content to eat hamburger, I want my kid’s brains to be nourished by the best cuts available. ;)
As far as homeschooling kids turning to the world… that would be because the parents allowed them to be influenced by the world and to have one foot in one place and one foot in the other. It is not the way a child is educated alone that will help determine their future. It is the whole lifestyle - Christ-minded or Self-minded.
As far being judgemental on your blog… blogs are where people voice their own opinions. If someone does not like it, they can stop reading.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:46 pm
You are good at what you do and the example you set can be encouraging to others. Many people probably don’t homeschool because they frankly know nothing about it. They were raised in public school and send their children there. Even if homeschooling crossed their minds, they probably wouldn’t know where to start or who to look to for help/encouragement. Just continue to set a good example and people will notice.
You did say you public schooled some foster children and Jenna. Did you ever hold the notion that public school was adequate or better and then through experience change your mind? Or have you always believed homeschooling to be superior?
January 31st, 2008 at 9:58 pm
I appreciate your strong opinions, Jeff. I went to public school, worked in the public schools, and would never put my children there. Yes, some people have circumstances that make hsing difficult or even nearly impossible, but with God, nothing is impossible! The local hser’s, church and/or families should step up and help out in times of need.
I had forgotten about it until I read Christa’s comment about the intimate questionnaire, I was subjected to one, too. It was freshman P.E. We sat on the floor in out T-shirts and shorts giggling about the dirty questions and admitting to all sorts of false things and making up lots of gross stuff in the comments section. It never occurred to me in those years to share what was happening to me at school with my parents. Of course, they were quite busy with work and other interests…I don’t know if they would have listened if I did say anything.
My last word: you don’t have to lay in the gutter to know that it stinks!
January 31st, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Eat all the hamburger you want, Kristy, I do.
Julia,
I have always thought homeschooling was superior. I told Katie before we got married that she would never have to go to work and the kids would be homeschooled. I told her I only wanted six children. I didn’t want to scare her off.
We sent Jenna to public school for 3 months. Here is the conversation I just kad with Katie…
JB 880778: how long was jenna in school
Two Dorfs: 3 months
Two Dorfs: with a teacher who kept me at school every afternoon to chat with me about other students in her class and tell me about her 16yo dd who had a baby and lived with her.
Two Dorfs: Oh, and she wore a cross.
Two Dorfs: She is the one that gossiped about Jan’s kid and I went to Jan and Jan called the principal and they told Ms. Reed to stop and the next week she told me that someone had reported her! LOL
January 31st, 2008 at 10:30 pm
We always had planned to homeschool Jenna but when she was 5yo we had two little foster girls that were 5 and 6 and so excited about school. Jenna got excited and we figured we would send her because how bad could it be in *kindergarten*? Eh-hem, it was bad. After 3 months Jenna pitched a fit one day and refused to go. We’re no dummies, she never went back.
Our next placement was a sib group of three and the oldest was 5yo. He went to school for 6 months until the *case manager* was sick of the school (same school, best district in AZ) and asked me to homeschool him. After that we never took a placement without making it clear that the child would never attend school while in our home. It worked out well. :)
January 31st, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Katie, your post reminded me of when I attended a homeschool group in CA. It was secular, but since they met around the block from my house, I thought it couldn’t hurt to try it. Wow! Was I surprised, most of the ladies sat around complaining about their husbands all the time and even gave each other ideas on how they could leave their husbands. There was also a wiccan woman in the group. I decided it was probably not in the best interest for me or the kids to hang out anymore. What a difference between the Christian h.s. group and the secular one. Was your experience similar?
February 1st, 2008 at 8:11 am
3 of my kids are homeschooled, and 3 are public schooled. I don’t agree with some of what you said in this post, and that’s okey doky! I’m not sure why people get so offended by other’s opinions.
Anyway, thanks for sharing :)
February 1st, 2008 at 8:43 am
Go Grandma Heidi! Wow. Excellent post.
February 1st, 2008 at 9:12 am
I think there might be one side of things you could be missing. I am going to homeschool. I think it is the best option. However, I have a wonderful husband that is supportive and wants me to homeschool. He works long hours and provides for our family so that I can stay home. We still make sacrifices like one vehicle instead of two, etc. Some families do not have that option.
I don’t know how much money you guys make and it is none of my business but many families can not afford to have one parent stay home and homeschool. Is that sad? Yes it is but try to be understanding that sometimes it is not in their control. It is not that they don’t want the steak they just have a hamburger budget. As much as they might want the steak sometimes you have to settle.
You can send your kids to PS and be involved enough in the process to teach your child what is right and what is not. You can also be a homeschool family and your child could be worse than if they went to PS. Some families definately shouldn’t be allowed to have children and their kids deserve a break away. Just think if some of the children you have had in foster care or adopted were HS by their bio parents. It would have been even a bigger disaster for them. Unfortuantely even though it is rare some hs families do not have the quality of education, life or family that yours does. I know of a couple of cases where parents have told the school system they are going to hs just so they could avoid getting their children taken away. Again it is a fallen world there are sick people out there both in ps and hs.
Again, I am going to homeschool. We are committed but if my husband were to lose his job… we would have to rethink that position or lose our home. As much as I love steak sometimes I have to eat the hamburger.
February 1st, 2008 at 9:41 am
Hi Jeff.
I appreciate your willingness to explain why home education is God’s plan for our children, despite criticism. Not many people have the boldness and confidence that comes from knowing what is truth and what is not. It is very refreshing. I am a second generation homeschooler myself, although there were times in my “K-12″ years that I was in school. I was never put into public school, but I was in private, Christian schools some. I am the oldest of my siblings, so I was kind of the “guinea pig” if you will. I can tell you that the last time I was in traditional school, I begged to come home and be homeschooled again. My parents said yes, I was thrilled, and never went back!
Having spent so much time in my life as a part of homeschool circles, I have seen many different families have many different levels of success with home education. I have known homeschoolers whose children graduated with a 4.0 and and went on to ivy league education.(Note:not that I consider this the peak of achievement, I just know that many out there look to this as the ultimate success. I for one, have serious questions regarding “higher education”.)
I have seen families with children having profound disabilities or special needs who would have been virtually ignored or passed over in a school system,flourish under the one-on-one love and instruction made possible by homeschool.
I have seen families where children were sexually abused and their fathers went to prison. I have seen families who have had foster/adoption children who gave their children a wonderful life lesson that comes from daily sharing and blessing others in need.
I have seen families where a daughter has gotten pregnant. I have seen families where sons and daughters have made firm commitments to purity and maintained that until their eventual courtships resulted in beautiful, happy marriages.
I could easily go on for much longer, but I do not wish to hijack your blog! LOL I just say all of this for one reason. Over the years, I have known homeschool families that have represented all walks of life. I have seen good and bad, but never have I seen a situation that would have been improved by sending the children to public or private school. It may not always be a popular viewpoint, and it may not always be well received, but they belong at home. Period.
February 1st, 2008 at 9:43 am
Christy,
I wrote this in my post titled “Reason 627 to Home School Your Children”:
Although I have heard the money excuse before, nobody brought that up in the comments on that post. The money excuse, for the most part, is just that - an excuse. People like to play that as their wild card because they know people are not going to ask to see their finances and argue with them about it. It is funny how a lot of the people that claim it is a money issue have 2 financed vehicles, 2 cell phones, Cable TV and internet, etc.
February 1st, 2008 at 10:01 am
Jenni,
Now, where is your blog so I can go read it? You made a very good point in your comment!
February 1st, 2008 at 10:18 am
Jeff,
Thank you for your reply. I realize I left that part out, but my question was answered anyway. And, Jenni answered my next “devil’s advocate” question that I didn’t even voice.
“I have seen good and bad, but never have I seen a situation that would have been improved by sending the children to public or private school.”
Angela :-)
February 1st, 2008 at 10:20 am
Jeff, I’m with you on the money excuse. I believe it is God’s design and will for my life to be at home with my children. I am and have always been willing to sacrifice anything for their sake. If I had to move into a one bedroom apartment and walk everywhere to keep them at home with me, I would. We don’t always have a lot of money, but I have seen God provide time and time again. I feel he has honored us for keeping me with our kids and he continually makes a way where there is no way. In this country we are so blessed and even our poorest have so much more than other parts of this world. I would rather give up a lifestyle and keep my children’s hearts.
February 1st, 2008 at 10:50 am
As someone who is homeschooling on next to nothing, and occasionally watching the home schooled son of a single mom when she has too long of a shift to expect him to stay home alone (he is 13), I find the money issue a tough one to swallow as well. I would sell off every single belonging I had before I put my kids in school. I taught there for 3 years and will not put my kids in that environment. We sold our house, bought a cheaper one, and cut back on many things in order for me to stay home and school our kids. The only reason I would not home school is if my Dh said I couldn’t. And luckily, he and I completely agree with our schooling choices.
February 1st, 2008 at 10:57 am
Anyone ready for some hamburger?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327457,00.html
I wonder if her parents are considering a Juicy Rib Eye Steak now?
February 1st, 2008 at 11:15 am
TO: Jeff, Katie, Ed, and all the other legalistic bloggers….
I’m glad you all would give up so much for your children. Our family does too, even friends of mine who DO NOT homeschool give up much for theirs. However, you haven’t given up the arrogant, self righteous attitude, pride, and idea that you are always right. That will be passed down to them no doubt (especially since they’re at home with you all the time). Christ commands us to is to LOVE, to offer GRACE, to lift up (ENCOURAGE), to be as Christ to everyone (especially those who don’t even know who HE is). If I was not a Christian I would think because of you that all Christians are just like you, and I would NOT want to have anything to do with the Church. You really need to look within yourself and ask Christ to change your prideful heart, and hateful attitude to those who don’t agree with exactly what you think. This blog couldn’t be farther from doing good will in the name of Christ. Glad He’s the judge! One day the Lord will allow circumstances in your lives that will cause you to look back and see the damage you’ve done to others, and your own sin. Maybe we should spend less time arguing about NON-Salvation issues, and spend that time reaching the lost (which these blogs are NOT doing)! We won’t be back. SO NOW YOU HAVE SPACE FOR SOMEONE ELSE SINCE WE’RE APPARENTLY TAKING IT. I’M SURE THEY WILL BE AS BLESSED AS WE HAVE (NOT!)
Prov. 10:12 Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all transgressions
(from Jeff) As my previous pastor used to say “If you don’t like it, leave - we need your parking space.” Your previous Pastor (our present one) would NOT have used that paraphrase in this context! Hey Jeff…now I know why you left Calvary, because they believe in Grace. You need to find a healthy, well balanced, non-legalistic church (your previous Pastor also says that all the time!) to be as honest with you as you feel the need to be to the world.
February 1st, 2008 at 11:30 am
As if you would need any more encouragement to NOT send your kids to school I just came across this on FOX
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,327408,00.html
This story is terrible, but I did find it amusing that the name of the school is “Not Your Ordinary School”
Have a great weekend and keep up the great blog!
Long time reader-
The Andersons
February 1st, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Eric,
Since you are so keen on painting people with a broad brush I suppose I should assume that all people that attend Calvary don’t know how to apply Matthew 18:15?
I suppose that you have also forgotten this verse? Romans 12:3
It appears to me that someone needs to remove the plank from his own eye before looking at the speck in his brother’s eye. Jeff is stating his opinion on his own platform here and *you* chose to come and argue with *him*. I am not sure what your issue is with us as we were always friendly to you when we attended Calvary. I was unaware that you harbored ill will toward us and we never had any hard feelings toward you. Strange. We left Calvary because their children’s church was a shambles. We kept our family home and watched Pastor Mark Martin on TV instead. Your made up story about why we left is much more interesting though.
I can feel the love, grace, encouragement and Christ-likeness oozing from your comment. Thanks.
February 1st, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Very interesting things you bring up, Eric.
Please show me my prideful heart and hateful attitude.
Please tell me what context it is in that Mark has told people to leave?
I guess Mark Martin is a legalist because he thinks homosexuality is wrong?
You must not know me too well if you don’t know why we left Calvary. It had nothing to do with Mark or his teaching. We went there for 12 years because his teaching is right on!
If you want to know, we left after I decided I did not want our kids in the children’s ministry there. Not that their children’s ministry is any worse than any other children’s ministry. The children’ ministry there is so large that it is impossible to know the familes of all the children in their classes. I was not comfortable with that. Why would I subject my children to hanging out with the same children I had been trying to keep them from the rest of the week? It just didn’t make sense.
I am happy for you that you attend Calvary Community and get to be taught by Pastor Mark. As you know, he is an excellent teacher and I am happy that I can still get my fix by turning on the radio or going to their website. But he is not all grace, grace, grace. He is very well-balanced.
Proverbs 27:5 An open rebuke is better than hidden love!
Proverbs 27:6 Wounds from a friend are better than many kisses from an enemy.
Proverbs 27:7 Honey seems tasteless to a person who is full, but even bitter food tastes sweet to the hungry.
Proverbs 27:12 A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, a friend sharpens a friend.
February 1st, 2008 at 12:29 pm
My husband and I were both saved at Calvary Community Church. I actually came out of the SDA church, where Pastor Mark was the assistant Pastor and Leslie was my 7th grade teacher at the adventist school. I know what legalism is all about and agree with Jeff that Pastor Mark has found balance. We no longer go there, it is way too big for our liking. I still do listen to Pastor Mark on the internet.
February 1st, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Eric,
Thank you for lumping me in with Jeff and Katie! They are clearly good people that love the Lord. It is an honor to be associated with them.
I will be commenting more later.
February 1st, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Hello Jeff!
I just HAD to write a reply here on this topic!
As you may have heard , my son is an only child and was always very outgoing and social. I taught him all I could at home. Among other things, he learned the alphabet and the sound each letter made as well as long & short vowel sounds. I just didn’t know how to teach him the next step…reading.
So I enrolled him in a small private pre-k 3 half days a week. That went really well. When it came time for kindergarten, I enrolled him in public school. I kept hearing how wonderful the school system was here. He lasted a little more than one month before I went to the school, lost my mind and pulled him out that very day! He went back to the small private school for kindergarten.
When it was time for 1st grade I had researched each and every private school in a 20 mile radius and found the one my son is still in today. It’s a VERY small Christian School. There are 6 children in his class including him. The teaching style there is very much like a homeschool environment IMO. Each child can really delve into the topics that interest them the most and learn way beyond what’s required. The children can also move along at their own pace. No need to wait until the whole class catches up. There is plenty of one on one instruction. The teachers are wonderful, patient and love children. Most of the parents of his classmates are very involved with the school.
I am a product of the public school system, ask Katie about my spelling “issues”. No way could I teach my child anywhere near the level he deserves to be taught at.
I’m not a religious person, yet I believe in all the help I can get as a parent in today’s society. This very small Christian School is more than I could have ever hoped to find for my son. I couldn’t be happier with his education, the friends he & I have made there or the quality of the teachers as people not just educators.
February 1st, 2008 at 1:30 pm
I agree that Linda’s situation is a great one. It is truly a rare situation. And Linda’s spelling is atrocious. ;) I owe you a phone call Linda.
February 1st, 2008 at 1:33 pm
LindaNJ, just to encourage you, in case you ever decide you don’t like your Christian school (as I didn’t after 2nd grade), remember there are so many wonderful resources out there to help you teach. There were so many things I was afraid of having to teach my kids that I am not strong at, but what has happened instead is I am learning right along with them! There are many curriculum companies that offer great support and some in the upper grades even let you call the actual writer of the curriculum to ask questions, it’s wonderful! Anyway, just throwing that out there, in case you ever need to know. :)
February 1st, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Rev 3:16 - So be either cold or hot, but not lukewarm or I will spit you from my mouth.
Sounds legalistic/extreme to me. Christ didn’t call us to pat other Christians on the back; He called us to be lights in the world. To stand out from the crowds. To be different.
Christian love has been perverted to allow all sorts of things to be allowed by Christians all in the name of love. Christ did not walk around looking to pat people on the back and give them love, but to find those who were willing to be shaken up and change.
How about this one, Jeff?
2 Cor 6
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?
Sounds like we should keep our children from the world. Sounds like we should not be spending more waking hours per day in a worldly institution than we spend with other believers or even with others in our own families.
Can anyone honestly say that public schools (NOT Christian schools, although they still have their own issues) are not darkness?
Ideally, children would all be at home with parents who love them and want to do the right thing for everyone in the world and teach their children the same. Sadly, too many people, even Christians, are selfish. I think loving Christ really comes down to showing all others love. So many are willing to sacrifice their children and do not show the most important people in their lives the love these people deserve. There used to be a time when children were the most important members of the family and all else was put aside for their benefit. Today, it is convenient that there is public school to babysit all day so parents can pursue their own lives.
February 1st, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Dearest Jeff,
Yes, there were issues in each family, as there are in EVERY family. The biggest issue with many of the parents was not being on the same page for many issues in life. One parent would want to go one way, and the other parent would pull in the opposite direction, leaving the children to either choose a side, or just be confused, drop their arms and give up trying. And this common in many homes.
And as I said, ALL parents screw up… even those with the best intentions. We as parents may not be aware of how much and when we screwed up, until our children are adults.
It is not and has never been the place of a pastor, teacher, prophet, missionaries, apostles, or even the Messiah when He walked among us, to be a judge of motives or intentions of the heart and actions of other humans. That type of judgement is reserved for the work of the Spirit of the Holy One in each person’s inner being, and for the Holy One Himself at the final Judgement. The Messiah when He was here had this to say on the judging the actions of others…
Matthew 7:1-3
1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
John 12:46-48
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
We, all mankind, have that which is our “judge” available to us for our reading, The “Guidelines for life” given by the Holy One will be our Judge on that Final Day. John the Apostle called the Messiah, The Living Word, because HE lived what the Father had commanded perfectly. If He didn’t do it ALL perfectly, we are of all men most to be pitied, since we are all still in our sins and headed for the lake of fire.
We do not need to be judging the actions of our fellow man. It is not our job. When we do so… we are usurping the position of the Holy One. And that is not a place I think you will find to be profitable in this life or in the Age to Come.
We can and should, go to those that are in our under direct line of authority and speak to them when they are sinning. And, they have to be SINNING against what is a literal commandment of the Holy One, not just what we consider to be wrong for us, or against our own personal preferences/convictions.
And… even then, it must be done with care and not like a “bull in a china shop” lest you do more damage to one the precious vessels of the Holy One that is already in a percarious position on the shelf and won’t take much for it to fall off the shelf and be broken. We will also give an account for the emotional pain we inflict on other in this life.
Luke 17:1-3
1 Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! 2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
And we are ALL His “little ones.”
One day you will learn, that it is more profitable in the long run to avoid strife, than to appear justified. We, as followers of the Messiah will be conformed to HIS image and that is why we are still here, to reflect HIS IMAGE in the lost and dying world around us.
And just what was HIS IMAGE when He walked among us? How did He treat the sinners, the sick and the lost and dying? How did He treat the self-righteous religious leaders of the day? Those that thought they “had it all together”, looking down their noses at the “unwashed masses” that were flocking to this latest in a long line of new messiah fellows to come on the scene.
The Messiah was judged/condemned by the religious for He eating and drinking with “sinners” and what was His response to the “religious” men of his day?
( to save space you can go here and read it yourself.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 15:1-10;&version=50;
The WORD of G_d is convicting enough on it’s own, people need only to hear what the Holy One has said, and then they can choose to do it or not. The outcome is of the person’s own choosing. It is not our job to force our own interpretation of His Word. But rather to clearly, in terns the people can grasp, illuminate that which is written. Then we keep SILENT and wait, and let the Spirit convict the heart of a person at the time of the Spirit’s choosing. We each have the abiltiy to screw up our own lives quite well, we do not need the further responibility for screwing up the lives of others by telling them how they should be living.
Our job is to be one of reconciliaton, to reconcile the lost and dying world to the Holy One of Israel. That is IT… we are not called to condemn others for their actions, we are called to live godly lives in the presence of darkness. What others may or may not do is not our concern really, unless we are in direct authority over them, as a parent or a spiritual leader.
Even as a parent or spiritual leader, we can’t forget we too are merely fellow sinners, and it is not our job to be judgemental but, rather to treat others as we would want to be treated if our positions were reversed.
Each of us is lacking in many areas of “messiahlikeness”, if we concentrate our efforts on being more like our Messiah, we will have little time left to oncern ourselves with how people, outside of our direct authority, are living their lives.
A single candle in a dark room draws the eyes of all in the room toward it, and the darker the room gets, the more all eyes will be drawn to the light.
We are called to be Salt, and Light…
Not salt to rub into the existing wounds of others. But, salt as to preserve and protect from corruption and decay.
And Light, not as a bright spotlight to blind others, or a light bulb hanging above the head of a prisoner as he is interrogated. But rather, as a light to illuminate the narrow path that leads to the Holy One of Israel.
Love you bunches,
Mom
February 1st, 2008 at 3:09 pm
I wanted to add… :)
That I am not fond of plucking verses out of context either. But seeing that there was no such thing as public school in Biblical times, one must look to the issue of spending time with others/fellowshipping.
In 2 Cor 6 and other places, we are told that righteousness is to be fellowshipping with darkness. It would seem fitting that since public schools are nothing but darkness (this is not the times of Laura Ingalls!), we should not be there if we are righteous.
So, I guess that is the question now is: as a “christian” are we too righteous to attend public school? My family is and I’m not ashamed to say it!
February 1st, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Great Article - This is where I was raised.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51748
California Christians urged to yank kids
Activist says children will be ‘molested by the curriculum’
Posted: August 31, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com
There would be “panic in the streets” if Christian parents in California decided that a state-mandated pro-homosexual environment no longer is for their children and took up homeschooling, one leader in education says.
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger
“It would be a wakeup call, heard around the country or perhaps the world,” Charles B. Lowers, the executive director of the pro-family Considering Homeschool organization told WorldNetDaily.
His comments came just a day after Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed a bill requiring even Christian colleges where students receive state grants to condone homosexuality, transsexuality and bisexuality.
Lowers said that should be over the top for any parent but especially Christian parents, who should pull their children from public school systems.
“‘Heck no, our kids won’t go!’ should be the rallying cry of Christian parents this week as school starts, instead of following the broad road of perversion and destruction that California schools are offering,” Lowers said.
Lowers said while Christians need to contact their representatives and the governor regarding that bill – and others that are pending in a legislature he describes as “sold-out” to the leftist, liberal agenda – the newest mandate from the state “should be the last straw.”
“It is estimated that anywhere from 80-90 percent of Christians are still sending their children off to government schools – it’s like the church is behaving like a bunch of lemmings,” Lowers said.
“Worldview surveys show that the majority of kids from Christian homes are humanist by graduation,” he said. “School-based ‘clinics’ are expanding … to ensure that your daughters get birth control and abortions without you knowing. Now that the homosexuals are dictating curriculum, 80-90 percent of Christians should be homeschooling, not the other way around,” he said.
“Public school is no place for innocent little kids. If they don’t get molested by the John Karrs who are in the system, their minds and hearts will be molested by the curriculum,” he said.
“Instead of the traditional three R’s in California’s public schools, children are learning Rebelliousness, Relativism, and an R-rated lifestyle,” he said.
Considering Homeschooling was started by Lowers and his wife in 2001, and it seeks to reach Christian parents with encouragement for their homeschooling ideas and guidance toward that activity.
“What our focus is, we are reaching out and recruiting Christian parents, especially Christian parents of very young children, babies, toddlers, preschoolers. They have the most to lose by sending their children to state schools,” Lowers said.
“The educational establishment in America really has pulled the wool over most parents’ eyes. Almost every parent teaches their child to speak English or whatever is their primary language. They’ve done the bulk of the teaching of the basics. But the establishment has put this aura around education and (says) only certified teachers should be teaching. Those teachers are less qualified than you to teach your children. You know them,” he said.
He said in California, the public schools are controlled “by a group of elitist, leftist, homosexual socialists.”
“Their agenda should not be the same agenda as Christian parents. We have really been putting it on the line here, saying to all Christians, ‘How could you in good conscience, knowing what you know, now send your children to public school?’” he said.
According to the National Home Education Research Institute, homeschooling may be the fastest-growing form of education in the U.S., with growth rates of 7-12 percent per year. Estimates show there are about 2.5 million home-schooled children in the United States.
That saves taxpayers roughly $16 billion annually, studies say, while at the same time those students generally perform better on standardized tests and go to college at a higher rate than those from public schools.
Significantly for Christian parents, studies show that among homeschooled students, 94 believe in Jesus when they graduate, but only 15 percent from public schools do.
The NHERI noted that a survey of adults who were homeschooled showed 72 percent participating in ongoing community service such as coaching a sports team or volunteering at a school. The comparison for other U.S. adults was 39 percent.
February 1st, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Christa,
Funny that you had a similar experience. The women at this group were very “crunchy” appearing which I like but there was something off. I don’t remember exactly what it was but I know that two of the children appeared to be “gender neutral”. We knew we would not be returning just because it felt weird but when we were driving home this is the story Jacob told us of his conversation with a boy that was there.
Exchange of pleasantries.
Jacob: Are you a Christian?
Boy: Would you play with me even if I wasn’t?
Jacob: Yes.
Boy: (states his religion)
Jacob: What do you believe?
Boy: I believe in reincarnation and rocks having special powers. (Elaborates a little bit on what types of things you can do with the rocks, etc.)
Jacob: (told him what we believe.)
It was interesting. I am proud of Jacob and how he handled himself. I’m not about to take a chance that he could do so well day in and day out when he is outnumbered 29 to one.
February 1st, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Heidi,
Do I have this right? It is wrong for Jeff to tell others they are wrong but it is right for you to tell Jeff he is wrong.
February 1st, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Wow, Jacob sounds like he was raised by some very tolerant parents and yet still felt like he could state his beliefs without fear. Interesting, don’t ya think?
February 1st, 2008 at 4:16 pm
I would quickly like to address the post regarding judging.
One of the most quoted verses that we hear thrown out by people is “Judge not, that ye be judged.” Therefore meaning, “who are you to judge me?” “Don’t you know that you are not supposed to judge people?” Usually this is what comes out of a person’s mouth when confronted about their behavior, their personal beliefs, or for what they are teaching. Is this really what the New Testament teaches, or is this just a smoke screen to cover-up unbiblical behavior or teachings? Let’s look at what the New Testament teaches concerning a Christian’s position when it comes to making judgments.
Let’s start with the most often quoted passage in Matthew 7:1-5 where is says,
“1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”
If we stop with the first verse, as most people do, it would seem to teach that to judge anyone is totally wrong. The problem with this is that it pulls the verse out of the context in which it was written. By the time you get to verse 5, it is clear that Jesus is talking to hypocrites (i.e., the Jewish religious leaders) who are condemning others for not living up to their standards.
The context for this section along with Luke 6:39-42 is the Sermon on the Mount, in which Christ was rejecting Phariseeism as a means by which a person could attain righteousness that would make them fit to enter the kingdom of heaven. The Pharisees claimed to have the most authoritative voice in Israel in matters pertaining to Moses’ law. Therefore they demanded explicit submission to their teachings (i.e., the oral traditions). Jesus Christ says this about the Pharisees in
Matthew 5:20, “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Christ wasn’t declaring that the Scribes and Pharisees were righteous, but was pointing out that their righteousness fell short because it was based upon the legalism of their oral traditions and not God’s Word.
I love these online Bibles, etc. It makes it quick and easy to get to the point. :)
February 1st, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Jacob sounds like a good boy!
I’m sick, so if it seems that I am posting like a stalker, sorry. I’ve just found a cool place to hang out while my kids graciously take care of me. ;)
February 1st, 2008 at 6:53 pm
This has been soo interesting. We hs and always have. Having both of us been through the ps school system, we knew we had no choice but to hs.
It seems that a few points are left out about why hs is better than ps. What about relationships with your children? If your child had a problem (esp. a teenager) would they go to mom/dad for help or a peer? I know what I would have done. My parents were stupid, surely my friends who had no experience whatsoever in life would know better.
What about teaching your daughters to be keepers at home? How can they learn home skills if they’re at school 8 hrs. a day, homework for another 2, play with friends after school and spend the night on the weekends. When do you have time? I could go on and on.
Anyways… I enjoy reading both of your blogs. Don’t stop speaking the truth for fear of offending. Jesus sure didn’t.
February 2nd, 2008 at 2:32 am
Ooh, this has been a great debate/discussion :) I just wanted to add my 2c from halfway across the world. I live in South Africa, which happens to have the most or second most liberal constitution in the world. This hasn’t translated into all spheres of life yet, as our constitution is only 14 years old, but it is rapidly getting there. What the US is experiencing in schools will be our situation in no time at all. So, I can relate!
Also, I taught high school in a private Xn school that was using the govt’s curriculum. During the years I taught, the curriculum was undergoing a massive overhaul and I was appalled at what I was seeing. Mandatory lifeskills included teaching kids what a c0nd0m was for at age 8 and how to put it on. Homos3xual s3x? Yup, gotto know all about it and its “benefits” before one turns 10.
Teaching in a Xn school exposed me to the fact that no school, even Christian, is better than home. Even at this school we had pregnant kids, bullying, lewd behaviour, drugs etc. And I discovered a thing or two about teachers - no ways could I give those kids what their parents could. I didn’t love them like their parents did; I had no idea (or not the detail one should to be a decent teacher & mentor) what was going on in their family/private lives; if they didn’t do homework, oftentimes legitimate excuses couldn’t be entertained because of the system (if one could even really know legitimate from illegitimate); and I certainly couldn’t pick up on every learning disability or weakness because I just did not know the kids well enough (and we’re talking small classes here).
On the other hand, the money “excuse” is a real issue here in SA. The US is set up in such a way that there are many state services, cheap housing etc that allows for a mom to stay home to school her kids. We don’t even have anything like Goodwill here. No welfare, state medical healthcare is appalling, housing, cars etc are hugely expensive… so for many families here it is essential for both parents to work in order to afford the basics. But, I fully agree that more often than not it is used as an excuse. Funnily enough, my brother & sister-in-law are now considering hs because it’ll be too expensive to send their kids to public school (which costs here)! At least they can school with second hand resources - even with new resources, hs works out cheaper!
Anyway, keep writing and bringing more evidence that supports homeschooling. I’d like to have more resources myself. Here hs is still very small, comparitively speaking.
February 2nd, 2008 at 4:28 am
Dearest Katie,
What Jeff is saying, regarding homeschooling is right and good. His hyper-critical attitude in judging the hearts and minds of those that, for whatever reason, choose to have children in public schools, is wrong. It is possble to state what one believes to be true in a HUMBLE manner.
It is the whole attitude , “if you are not doing things as I do them you are either stupid, ungodly, and for sure not as spiritual as ME!” That is the problem I see with this particular set of postings on the homeschooling topic. The conplete lack of humility. I am all for homeschooling, I too, do not believe a child can endure hours and hours of having their faith and all their parents try to teach them, undernimed and come out unaffectd. To say nothing of the peer pressure to do what everyone else is doing.
It is the whole RELIGIOUS SUPERIORITY AND JUDGEMENTAL ATTITUDE of others that I was sad to see. We are to be known by the love we have one for another, and it is the LOVE of G_d that brings people to repentance.
There are ways of putting forth what you believe that are in a more WINSOME manner. But, when one has a hyer-critical attitude that turns off even his own mother, who agrees with him in principle, I’d say he needs to take second look at look at his presentation of his convictions.
A teachable, humble spirit is what most Christian parents desire to instill in their children. I am thinking I obviously failed in that area.
February 2nd, 2008 at 7:04 am
And for Ed,
The passage in Matt. 7 on Judging was given to the DISCIPLES, not the religious leaders… or even to the multitudes that followed the Messiah. If you notice, there are times when the Messiah spoke to the multitudes AND his disciples, and other times He spoke only to His disciples. This is one of the times listed that He was speaking ONLY to His disciples.
The portion on judging put back in context begins in Matt. 4:23 and ends in Matt. 7:29
The story begins with the Messiah AVOIDING the multitudes that were there to “see the show.”
The “sermon on the mount” as it is called, was given to His inner crew, those willing to climb the mountain to hear what He had to say.
Starting….
Matthew 5:1
1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. (notice it says his disciples not the multitude came to Him)
From that point, to the end of Chapter 7, he is speaking to His inner circle.
Matthew 7:28-29
28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Do your really think there were no hypocrites in that inner circle? They were humans, just like all of us hypocrites that are following Him today. A hypocrite, a word pulled from the Greek theater, is one with a false face, one wearing a mask, one playing a role, not showing their real self.
This section of Matthew 4:23 thru 7:29 is all one unified, continuous account of a teaching, given one afternoon on a mountain to his inner circle of disciples.
We don’t know for sure how many disciples there were at this point. But, if the amount in the upper room in Acts 1:15 (about 120) is any indication of the number of true disciples. It could have been 50 maybe a few more, since this was fairly early in His ministry, and this is the first sermon that was recorded by Matthew. (If the Matthew account is according to any sort of time line that is, Luke’s account seems to follow a time sequence more than the account of Matthew.)
When the Messiah finished speaking to his disciples on the mountain, He comes down the mountain, and again there waiting are the multitudes ready to watch and see what this fellow will do next to entertain them.
Yes, we are to judge, we are specifically told not to go before the secular courts with our disputes, we are to have godly and wise men in each community to hear disputes
1 Corinthians 6:1-5
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?
But, what is the context of how we are to be used as a judge over the actios of others in the household of faith? In Matthew 18 we are given the guideiines for the solving disputes in the Body of the Messiah.
A Tribunal is set up to judge a disputed matter. No where is there an example given in the OT or the NT for a person by himself to judge the actions of another person.
If someone has wronged you, sinned against you, in some way that has violated the standards given to us by the Holy One in His word, then and ONLY then, are we to first go to the brother in PRIVATE and try to work out the dispute.
If we can’t do it on our own, then a tribunal is set up to hear both sides of the issue. That is why gossip is so very destructive in a community, if one hears a matter from one side or the other, he is then disqualified to be a judge in that matter.
This ancient Jewish legal practice is part of our court system to this day, ever heard of a judge or an attorney having to “recuse” himself from a case? When that happens, it is because the judge or attorney knows he can not make a righteous judgement or represent without prejudice his client in that particular case.
The two or three spoken of in Matthew 18 are a tribunal called a “Beit Din” in Hebrew. It means House of Judgement in English. It comes from this law in the Torah regarding how courts are to be run.
Deuteronomy 19:15
15 “One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.
Each party in the dispute agrees ahead of time to abide by the decision of the tribunal. If one of the parties then does not abide by the judgement of the tribunal, the person is “excommunicated” until such time as they repent and submit to the judgement of the tribunal. And the congregation is NOT told the details of the dispute. The are only to be informed that one of the parties is not abiding by the judgement of the tribunal. And that until there is repentance that person is out of the community, and is now under the judgement of the Holy One.
This gathering of the tribunal is a serious matter, just as going to any court is to be considered serious. One does not call together a tribunal for pet peeves, and things that are merely annoying. Judgement is reserved for breaking the Commandments of G_D. PERIOD. (there are 613 commandments in the Torah. and someone once counted the commandments in the NT and says there are over 1500 commandments in the NT alone.)
We have to be very careful not to be putting ourselves up on a “higher spiritual level” which in the King Jimmy is known as being “haughty.” And that attitude is not attractive to others, especially non believers who are looking to us to see if what we have is real or worth having at all. Haughtiness is really not an attitude to be endured by the Holy One.
Psalm 101:5
5 Whoever secretly slanders his neighbor,
Him I will destroy;
The one who has a haughty look and a proud heart,
Him I will not endure.
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverbs 18:12
12 Before destruction the heart of a man is haughty,
And before honor is humility.
So, you young people just keep on judging others with a haughty attitude and I am sure as I can be, at some point, if you belong to HIM, He will humble you. And you will, like the rest of us old folks who have been humbled, wince, when we look back and realize we indeed “missed the mark” when we with our “haughty” attitudes considered our brothers to be less spiritual than us because they are not doing things according to what is right in our own eyes.
We are not called to be a judge, unless there is a tribunal called for a specific offense, and that must be an offense that violates the Word of the Holy One. And even then, the matter is to be kept between the offended parties and the tribunal.
So shotgun blasts of judgement and condemnation of others with no intent of reconciliation of the offended parties is not the type of judgement sanctioned by the Holy One of Israel. Neither in the OT or the NT.
And…..
The Messiah did not always condemn the Pharisees… in fact He held up their teachings as a standard that we were to follow.. we were to observe or do whatever they told us to observe and do…
Matthew 23:1-3
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
And he goes on to list the types of things He didn’t want us to do that the leadership was doing.
The Messiah followed more of the traditions of the Pharisees than He condemned.
The Apostle Paul, said he was a Pharisee of Pharisees, meaning he followed the strictest observance of the Torah in his day. Following the Torah is NEVER wrong, In the Torah are the guidelines given by the Holy One on how to we are to live and interact with Him and those created in His image.
What the Pharisaic Leadership was doing wrong, is to run around using the Torah as a measuring rod with which to judge the lives of others, but then to exempt themselves from judgement with that same measuring rod.
That was the problem the Messiah had with the Pharisaic leaders.
Well, Now I have to get up in two hours!! But, I made the mistake of coming up here to see what was going on with this thread…
Y’all keep me in your prayers this next couple of weeks, I will be working at the Gem and Mineral Show, helping some Jewish friends of ours, who recently opened the first Kosher restaurant in Tucson. They have put together a Kosher Buffet for the Orthodox Jewish vendors from all over the world that come to Tucson for this event. This is the first time anything like this has been planned Lots of money has been invested in a portable kitchen, food, and all that jazz.
Today the chef for the restaurant was put in the hospital with bronchitis!!! Please pray for her speedy recovery so they will not lose their shirts on this venture. And pray that those of us who know the Messiah, will represent Him faithfully when opportunities are given to us.
February 2nd, 2008 at 8:34 am
Heidi,
Thanks for the comment. It looks like it is going to be some good reading. I just did a quick scan, but I am looking forward to spending time on what your wrote.
you wrote, “And pray that those of us who know the Messiah, will represent Him faithfully when opportunities are given to us.”
Barukh attah Adonai eloheinu melekh ha-olam, asher natan lanu et derekh ha-yeshua’
bamashiach Yeshua, barukh hu. Amen.
February 2nd, 2008 at 9:15 am
Dearest Ed,
Todah Rabah!
Baruch haBa B’shem Ad_nai!!
I decided now it would be worthless to go to bed!! I am making some service CDs. I have to go open up the shul in an hour from now!! I hope to get a good nap this afternoon!!
Chesed v’shalom aleichem b’Y’Shua haMashiach,
(Grace and peace to you in Y’Shua the Messiah)
Lest we be accused of speaking in an unknown tongue/language without interpretation here. ;)
Shabbat Shalom
Heidi
February 2nd, 2008 at 9:23 am
You’re right
Barukh attah Adonai eloheinu melekh ha-olam, asher natan lanu et derekh ha-yeshua’
bamashiach Yeshua, barukh hu. Amen.
English:
Blessed are You, LORD our God, King of the universe, Who gave to us the way of salvation
through the Messiah Yeshua, blessed be He. Amen.
February 2nd, 2008 at 9:40 am
and in Heidi’s comment
Todah Rabah!
English:
Thank you very much!
Baruch haBa B’shem Ad_nai
(o intentionally removed. I will explain later if anyone is interested)
English:
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the L_rd.
Shabbat Shalom
English:
Sabbath Peace
Info: Sabbath began yesterday at sundown. The candles were lite approximately 18 minutes before sundown. Moms you start the process. Sabbath (Shabbat) will continue until tonight when the first three stars are seen. Cool isn’t it?
I thought that I would continue with the translations. ;) Hebrew is cool! I sure do enjoy some of the traditions too. They are a blessing and very educational.
February 2nd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Ed, you must not be too busy at work today. ;)
February 2nd, 2008 at 1:40 pm
That was really enlightening, Heidi. Thank you!
February 2nd, 2008 at 5:28 pm
[…] was going to leave this as a comment on Public School is Hamburger, but I really felt that it deserved its own post. So, here it is… I will share my own […]
February 4th, 2008 at 1:14 am
Funny how the enemy is able to steal, kill and destory, using anyone of us, when we allow bitterness to take root in our hearts. I am saddended beyond belief tonight that one who says he loves me, would do such a hurtful thing. And only because I felt he was being too judgemental of others. Oh well. very sad indeed. I must say.
February 4th, 2008 at 10:06 am
Mom,
This had nothing to do with bitterness. It has to do with exposing the deception and lies. That’s all.
February 18th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
Ironically with the hamburger recall, The Public School does not have hamburger. But still is hamburger.